by Brad Baker
February 22nd 2023
1 Here is what one brother had to say about the debating of the Individual Body View “IBV” Vs. Corporate Body View “CBV” also known as the Spiritual Body Vs. Collective Body views:
Quote: The IBV and CBV debate has been going on for a long time, and I think both camps are so firmly entrenched that it is useless to continue the debate. I haven’t seen any new info come to light that would persuade me. If there were some ironclad arguments that sealed the deal, I would change my mind in a heartbeat. I think true brothers feel the same way, but the dilemma is that we all have feet of clay, no matter who we are. Now we know in part…but then face to face. “End Quote”
2 After 18 years of going along with the CBV I finally heard what IBV was about and came to a change in my position of faith because there were many thing that the CBV did not sit right with me. 3 I saw there was a Pandora box opened that took you down many rabbit holes and it was a Bad Moon Rising.
4 Once I had changed to the IBV that Ed Stevens presented to me everything else fell into place, and I began to noticed that Ed Stevens was solid within the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith. 5 He does not take you to Pandora’s box where everything else you would have to believe in if you went along with the CBV would be Here a Cult, There a Cult and Everywhere a Cult, Cult. 6 While at the same time avoids the false doctrines within the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith. 7 Mainline Christianity looks at the Full Preterist with a CBV, CC, CG and think all Full Preterist are cultists.
8 Here is a list of what mainline Christianity sees in mainline Full Preterist:
1. Full Preterist don’t believe in the resurrection.
2. Satan does not exist for both Universalist and Annihilationalist.
3. Hell was only in AD70 so it does not exist now for Preterist who are Universalist.
4. Or if they are not Universalist they are Annihilationalist who believe everything is annihilated in the Lake of Fire including Satan and his demons.
5. The Holy Spirit does not indwell us unless it’s just the word of God coming out of our mouths.
9 Now that I can clearly see the paths both side have taken I can tell you that the mystery has been solve with distinguishing the differences between what is the Soul and the Spirit or conscience, and what is the differences between the Redemptive Body and the Collective Body.
10 The physical Body both sides believe returns to dust and is not resurrected which is based in reality. 11 Though mainline Christianity does believe in a physical Body resurrection of the molecules and DNA, all miraculously coming together even if they have been separated and spread all over the world, or in the waters, or in the air we all breath, or whether an animal ate a body or whether it was burned in a fire. 12 All of these physical molecules and DNA all come together by a miracle from God to bring back a dead person back to life again. 13 This raises many questions like at what age would a person look like, young or old or in the prime of life. 14 This causes a lot of people to turn away from this view because it is not based in reality but rather seems like a fantasy and hard to believe.
15 Everything that the CBV is true but it is not for the Redemptive Body, it is for the Spirit which was dead but was made alive and they were sealed with the Spirit as a guarantee for the promise of a Redemptive body at the resurrection. 16 Which would be a Spiritual body according to the IBV. 17 The CBV rejects the IBV and skips the Spiritual Redemptive body for what the Spirit already had during the first century and uses it for the resurrection in place of what the IBV has, and as a Collective Body being resurrected out of the Old Covenant and into the New Covenant.
18 This is using truth as a straw man to debunk what truth actually is within the context of the resurrection. 19 The New Covenant was not resurrected out from the Old Covenant. 20 The Old Covenant was made obsolete as it vanished away. 21 The Old Covenant was put to a slow death until the end of the Age of Corruption when the Grand Ultimate Jubilee set the world free from Adam’s sin and death for a Worldview of the New Glorious Creation in the unseen Spiritual realm of the New Heaven and Earth in AD70.
22 The New Covenant was in full swing during the first century because of the blood Jesus shed for the first death of all mankind inherited from Adam. 23 While the Old Covenant was vanishing away, both existed at the same time in the transformation called the Millennium Generation that John signified as a thousand years in Revelation 20.
24 Here we can see that the believers in the first century already had the New Covenant for their Spirit, but they still were waiting for the Redemptive body that was to come at the end of the Age of Corruption when all things were made new. 25 Even the Church was about to experience a change like Joshua did when he left the wilderness and entered into the promised land and all things were changed and made new, from the wilderness of eating manna, to the land of milk and honey etc.
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Romans 8:23Not only that, but we also who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
26 Here are the main differences between two views within Full Preterism but it should be noted that not all believe in all of the things listed within these categories. 27 But for the most part these views run within the mainline Full Preterist who are the majority. 28 The Transcended Full Preterist Worldview is the narrow way that stays within the basic foundational doctrines within mainline Christianity. 29 While the mainline Full Preterist CBV and CC views are the wide way and these doctrines vary to a major degree with totally different outcomes that are all the basic foundational doctrines of cults when it comes to foundational doctrines within Christianity.
30 Here is a comparison chart between the two views:
Full Preterist Worldview Creation Vs. Full Preterist Covenant Creation
1 Individual Body View of Resurrection 1 Corporate Body View of Resurrection
2 Biblical Creation Worldview 2 Covenant Creation
3 New Glorious Creation Worldview 3 Church Only View of the New Creation
4 Worldview Outpouring of Holy Spirit 4 Anti-Holy Spirit Indwelling post AD70
5 Prodigal Son’s Spiritual Death 5 Adam’s sin and death still Spiritual Death
6 Eternal Conscience Torment of Spirit 6 Total Annihilation of Satan & the Unjust
7 Ultimate Jubilee Worldview post AD70 7 Universalism Comp. Grace CG & New Age
31 Both agree that all scripture was fulfilled in AD70 and share many of the same beliefs in eschatology. 32 While the Biblical Creation Worldview is not an established position and probably never will be. 33 It does lean to a Young Earth Creation view that is the foundational doctrine within mainline Christianity, while exploring the limits allowed in order to be safe within what the scriptures literal say in Genesis 1.
34 The main point in this article is to focus on rightly dividing the truth between what is Spirit, soul and Body. 35 The Bible teaches that we consist of Spirit, soul and body:
I Thessalonians 5:23 “May your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus”
36 Our material bodies are evident, but our Souls and Spirits are less distinguishable. 37 Your Soul speaks of your inner-life in relation to your own experience: your mind, heart, will, and imagination. 38 It also includes your thoughts, desires, passions, and dreams. 39 But your Spirit speaks of the same inner-life in relation to God: your faith, hope, love, character, and perseverance.
40 When we die, our Spirit separates from the body and returns back to God while the body returns back to the Earth. 41 Even though our Body dies, our Spirit, which is the essence of who we are, lives on. 42 Our Soul and Spirit does not go to Hades like it would have before AD70 waiting for a period of time until it is resurrected. 43 Our Spirits unites with our Spiritual Individual Redemptive body that God has in reserve waiting for us right after we physically die.
44 The CBV believes the resurrection of AD70 was being resurrected into the New Covenant with the things THEY ALREADY HAD but apply them to the resurrection. 45 So in a sense they deny a Spiritual Individual Redemptive body, but rather believe in a collective body with no individual identity that is blended together like a loaf of bread instead of individual strands of wheat. 46 Can you just image the reapers in the parable of the wheat and tares at harvest time cutting down a huge loaf of bread in the field with weeds sticking out of the loaf and having to pull them out. 47 That is in a sense of how it would have to be if the Collective Body View was true when it comes to the corporate oneness that leaves the individuality of the person out of it. 48 The CBV view of the New Covenant is what the Spirit of a new born again believer had way before the resurrection happened in AD70.
49 The Redemptive Spiritual body IBV that they did have personally just for themselves so they would be like the Angels and what Jesus has in Heaven, yet united as one in the Spirit. 50 There was a difference of separation between Spirit, Soul and Body for the afterlife. 51 The CBV seems to not acknowledge this but rather blends the Spirit, Soul and Body into one for a Collective Body of Christ View of being one with Christ. 51 This is a gross misunderstanding of what oneness actually is of the Spirit or conscience.
52 Here is a listen of scriptures that the CBV use and is applied to what they were resurrected into and then would say Paul definitely taught CBV. Hopefully you will see what I mean.
John 2:19-21 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1 Corinthians 10:16-17 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.
1 Corinthians 12:12 – 13 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:25-27 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.
Ephesians 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
Ephesians 2:19-22 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
Ephesians 4:11-13 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Ephesians 4:15-16 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Ephesians 5:29-30 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.
Colossians 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s affliction
Colossians 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
53 It almost seems as if the CBV is saying the Church did not have those things listed above and got them in AD70 when the resurrection occurred, what kind of logic is that…? 54 Many of the texts they use like Ephesians 2:19-22 support the IBV but they misapply them for the view of what their bodies were resurrected into instead of a Spiritual Individual Redemptive Body for the afterlife where the Spirit dwells in. 55 It’s like God dwelling within the Heavenly Temple in the unseen realm and believers being the lively stones all fitting together to make a Heavenly Temple to dwell in the Kingdom of Heaven.
56 This is a straw man fallacy CBV uses in the form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. 57 One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man”
58 It is like saying a multi millionaire spent his money all throughout his lifetime and has a great time with it ,and at the end of his last few years of life he still has more than what he started with. 59 Then God comes up to him and resurrects him out of poverty and says that he never had that money to spend during his life time even though he did. 60 Then God gives him all the money that he had previously and say here this is yours now, you get to enjoy it and spend as much as you please just like you did before though I said you did not have it.
61I can just hear that person saying Wow, Gee thanks, I didn’t know that I spent my whole life in poverty and finally now I’m a multi millionaire.
62 I hope you get the point and that it makes God look like someone who He is not, because He has a sound mind and does not give us a Word Salad to eat. 63 This is where the word of God is like a sharp two edged sword that separates the differences between the Spirit, Soul and Body and rightly divides it into the categories where they belong in.
64 The CBV denies an Individual Spiritual body IBV, that the saints would get in the resurrection in AD70 with the things THEY ALREADY HAD !!! and apply them to the resurrection which denies them of faith for a scriptural Individual Spiritual Redemptive Body. 65 They use the New Covenant as a straw man to cover for their version of the resurrection which is all truth but misapplied to debunk the truth of a Spiritual Individual Redemptive body that a saint would be resurrected into. 66 Then they have the Covenant Creation view that seems to back up the CBV for a confirmation. 67 When truth is use and misapplied it is deception because people hear the truth and believe it because it sounds true not knowing it has been misapplied and misrepresented and easier to get away with than an outright lie that believers can see.
68 That is why I steer clear of the CBV and CC and everything else they manage to distort within their views. 69 Like Jesus dying for Spiritual death only, when He died so that the saints would get a Spiritual body for the afterlife and be rewarded individually instead of a collective oneness like communism or socialism. 70 This toxic doctrine and so many others like total Annihilation in AD70 for Satan, his Angels and for the unjust. 71 Some if not most believe in anti Holy Spirit indwelling after AD70 except when a person quotes the word of God but nothing else like when it comes to live a Holy life with the Fruits of the Spirit. 72 They will present that in another way while denying the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit within them 24/7 and try to stay focused on the gifts ceasing like they had before AD70. 73 Not all CBV believe like that though, some do believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is 24/7 for believers today.
74 Bottomline is that CBV robs people of the hope of a resurrection and blinds them from the things in the unseen realm where both the just and unjust dwell in the afterlife. 75 As well robs people of the hope of the infilling of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives that empower us to live a Holy life, and it leaves non believers there as if still under Adam’s sin and death that the final Jubilee in AD70 set all of mankind free from.
New Glorious Creation Worldview “NGCW” Vs. Covenant Creation “CC”:
76 The CBV opens the door to Covenant Creation “CC” or what I call the Church Only View “COV”. 77 This view closes the door to a Worldview of Romans 8:21-23 as well as IBV for the adoption into the Children of God and a Redemptive Individual Spiritual body. 78 Here again not recognizing the difference between what is Spirit, soul and Body.
Romans 8:21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and labours with birth pangs together until now. 23Not only that, but we also who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
79 The CC denies the whole world being set free from the bondage of Adam’s sin and death even though they say death was cast into the Lake of Fire in AD70. 80 Almost all if not all mainline Full Preterist believe that the non believers today are still under Adam’s sin and death and they will say yes they are and that they believe only the believers are part of the New Creation and that all things made new only refers to believers in Christ only.
81 I guess the aftermath of those views would also mean the New Heaven and Earth is only meant for believers and the non believers are still stuck in the Old Heaven and Earth which would mean that Old Covenant still stands and was never destroyed by fire like they claim it was. 82 When I confront them on these issues they quickly change things around in order to agree with scripture and apply it to their views quickly. 83 When it comes down to it CBV and CC are a Word Salad that takes you down many rabbit holes and deny what God actually has done by over Spiritualizing typologies from God’s word. 84 Their faith has been robbed by doctrines that are not sound and do not belong in the foundational doctrines of Christianity.
85 Covenant Creationism says the “no more sea” of Revelation 21:1 is no more gentile nations. But is that really what it refers to?
86 If the Most Holy Place represented Heaven which is did, and the Holy Place represented Earth which it did, then the Sea represented the Outer Courts. Revelation 11:2 says not to measure the Outer Courts.
87 The Outer Courts represented the Under Earth where Darkness dwells. Does Outer Darkness ring a bell…?
88 The Under Earth is the Kingdom of Darkness where no more sacrifices for sins can be made. It is also a place of abominations that can not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
89 So for Covenant Creationism says that “no more sea” of Revelation 21:1 is no more gentile nations is to also say the Christ will not be ruling over the Nations with a Rod of Iron because they do not exist. 90 It just does not add up…
91 The CC view breaks the foundational doctrines of Creation of the Heaven and Earth and substitutes a Covenantal Creation but overly Spiritualizing it. 92 While there is truth to typologies within what they might say, CC goes beyond the limits of foundational doctrines in order to get their view across but changing a few things like, others being created before Adam and Eve, and Eve not taken from Adam’s rib. 93 They are faulty at the start and all the way through rotten to the core, and they are faulty end of their conclusions.
Indwelling of the Holy Spirit:
94 Most people not all who are CBV do not believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit post AD70 except when someone is speaking the word of God from the “Logos” scriptures only. 95 The “Rheum” hearing what the Spirit is saying is rejected. 96 The problem with this view is that we need the Holy Spirits indwelling to have the Fruits of the Spirit within our lives as well as speaking the word of God with present day truth for today. 97 Red Flags go up with them when you mention: hearing what the Spirit is saying. 98 Because of the fear they have that would over ride God’s authoritative written word by their own means of interpretation as God’s authoritative word.
99 Talking about chaining God’s word which the Bible says can not be chained, this how anyone can blaspheme the Holy Spirit so easily as to say no one can hear what the Spirit is saying and if anyone claims that they have heard what the Spirit is saying they get demonized for saying that as if calling the Spirit a demon when true. 100 We can test the Spirits to see if what someone says is so but to outright deny all of it is a dangerous place to go. 101 To say we are hearing what the Spirit is saying comes with a great responsibility yet we can also be assured by testing every Spirit first before we say something. 102 The Holy Spirit will confirm things by using hermeneutics and typologies to back up what is being said, and whether the application would make sense for present day truth with nothing misplaced and misrepresented.
2 Timothy 2:9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Universalist and Annihilationalist:
Universalist and Annihilationalist have something to see here, that they need to consider for their views.
103 The death Adam was to die was both a Spiritual and a physical death. God provided a substitute animal the day Adam and Eve sinned and covered them with its skin for a physical death. 104 This was an act of God’s grace and mercy that was a type for what Jesus would do on the cross. 105 Notice here that God did not say Adam would not die physical if he never sinned but it was wheresoever day it was he sinned he would die. 106 Many people believed this meant that Adam would never physical die but that is not what it says.
Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—of it ye shall not eat, but in whatsoever day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die.
107 If Adam was to have never die a physical if he never had sinned he would have never been able to enter Heaven where flesh and blood can not enter. 108 If Adam’s physical death at the end of his years was what God meant, then that would also mean that in the resurrection Everyone would have had a physical body instead of a Spiritual Body, which is not how it happened. 109 Paul clearly says that the resurrected body was a Spiritual body in 1 Corinthians 15:44-45.
110 Therefore when we connect all the dots from scripture it boils down to this that in the hereafter, everyone post AD70 is raised with a Spiritual body. 111 Some will be immortal and other will be mortal because after judgment the Spiritual body and soul can be destroyed but the Spirit or conscience that connects with God and returns to God at physical death is never destroyed. 112 So this is the Spirit or conscience that was to be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire, Ed Stevens had this to say: “Quote”
Jesus was preparing his disciples for the persecution and tribulation that was about to come upon them in that generation as they preached the gospel all over the Diaspora and Roman Empire. Jesus told them that they would be persecuted, and even killed for His namesake, but NOT to worry about it because all that their persecutors could do was to kill their bodies. They could not touch their souls. Only God can do that. “End Quote”
113 With the soul destroyed repentance is impossible for what Universalist would say when the unjust repent after they are in the Lake of Fire and get a free card out of the Lake of Fire and are saved. 114 The Soul is the mind, will and the emotions therefore if the Body and Soul is killed in the afterlife of those who get eternal condemnation there would be no emotional pain, no ability to think about having the will to chose to repent. 115 Annihilationalist say everything gets annihilated, while Universalist say only dead works controlled by the soul get annihilated while the Spirit is saved, but both of these views are not seeing the big picture completely. 116 The unjust lose their Spiritual body and Soul in the Lake of Fire when it is killed because they are not immortal nor do they have immortality, but their Spirit consciousness is tormented forever.
117 Could part of their torment be having their Spirit or conscience seeing their Spiritual Body and Soul go up in smoke forever and ever and never be able to do anything about it. 118 While also their Spirit being aware or able to see all the joy in Heaven while having to live with all those who did not make it as well as being ruled by Satan the king of the Kingdom of Darkness with all of his Angels being tormented with them. 119 This would not be something anyone would want for themselves in the afterlife but it is a possible reality in the unseen realm in the Lake of Fire.
120 The scriptures and Holy Spirit guide and show us what to believe by separating and rightly dividing the word of truth. 121 Otherwise we have to rule out both to fit a view that is not seeing the big picture after connecting all the dots that hermeneutics will show us if we have an open heart and mind to receive and believe it.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
122 The Corporate Body View and Covenant Creation view make it all out to be about the God’s with God’s people for the resurrection of the dead. 123 They do not consider the resurrection being about the Spirit, Soul and Body and what applies to them all. 124 The Individual Body View does and relates to the Spirit, Soul and Body that keeps the door open to explore all that they entail.
125 Preterist who are Universalist also call their view Comprehensive Grace “CG” and usually this view opens the door to the New Age of all in all, and I am God fallacies. 126 Lucifer tried to pull that one on God and was cast out of Heaven for his pride in:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High. 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
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