Copyright © Brad M. Baker
All Rights Reserved
August 19th 2024
1 When a gaslighter throws a red herring into an argument, they confuse, obscure, and detract from the perspective and goal of the other individual. 2 One of the main things the “Corporate Body View” of resurrection (CBV) has done has detracted from the wonderful truth that was expected about the resurrection. 3 By gaslighting it with a truth that belongs somewhere else they have been able to deceive many Full Preterist into rejecting what was expected concerning the resurrection with there Hyper Preterist view. 4 Full Preterism is coming to the point where the Covenant Eschatology “Church Only” needs to be identified as one leaning to anti-conservative Christianity in many aspects. 5 New Heaven and Earth Eschatology with a “Worldview” needs to be identified as one leaning to Pro-conservative Christianity aside from eschatology.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”
6 Charles Meek “Quote” from and Covenant Eschatology: The “Corporate Body View” of resurrection (CBV) teaches that “resurrection” is nothing more than, or at least mostly about, restoration of Israel’s relationship with God, in a collective sense. This view sits in opposition to the “Individual Body View” (IBV) which professes the understanding that salvation is purely individual. The CBV view effectively redefines eschatology in terms of soteriology (how we are saved), and specifically collectivizes it. How this translates into any hope for individuals in heaven in the afterlife—a prominent doctrine of classical Christianity—is murky, muddled, and minimized. Further, some proponents of the CBV teach that heaven is here on earth now, and that any benefits that await the believer in a heavenly realm are illusory. This is a very misguided path of Christianity.
“End Quote”
7 The thing about Corporate Body View Covenant Eschatology that there is some truth in what they say, that the restoration of Israel’s relationship with God, in a collective sense. 8 But that had begun in AD33 with the Fulfillment of the Feast of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out of the believers in the Upper Room. 9 However the CBV disconnects that truth from Pentecost in AD33 and misapply it for the resurrection in AD70. 10 What is so frustrating about the CBV is, that by saying that it is as if the first century Church never had a restored relationship with God, in a collective sense and never were one in the body of Christ until AD70 which is hogwash.
11 Here is a list of what mainline Christianity sees in mainline “Hyper” Full Preterism within Covenant Eschatology:
1. Don’t believe in the resurrection of physical or Spiritual bodies, but they believe that the confirmation of the New Covenant with the Old Covenant taken away when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in AD70 was the resurrection of the just and the unjust.
2. Satan does not exist for both Universalist and Annihilationalist Hyper Full Preterist.
3. Hell was an added word which means only a temporary place of refining fire where the Spiritual body and soul can not be destroyed; so when the sinner repents they go to Heaven. This is what the Hyper Full Preterist who are Universalist believe.
4. If they are not Universalist they are Annihilationalist who believe the body, soul and Spirit are annihilated in the Lake of Fire including Satan and his demons therefore they cease to exist.
5. Some Hyper Full Preterist believe that the Holy Spirit does not indwell believers unless it’s just the written word of God coming out of our mouths when we speak.
Questionnaire
12 This questionnaire is about the Corporate Body View (CBV) and is open for correcting me in a simple way if the question I’m asking is a not correctly explaining it or seems like a straw man.
13 The Corporate Body View (CBV) is very confusing to many to say the least and those who believe in it do not believe in a bodily resurrection for the dead in the first century whether it was physical or Spiritual. 14 Yet they have their own version of the resurrection which is not at all what everyone was expecting. 15 Some of them believe they will be in the afterlife in a individual Spiritual body IBV while maintaining a CBV. David Curtis Pastor of the Berean Church holds to this CBV & IBV combinational view.
16 1. So my question to anyone who understands the CBV view to share what kind of body they believe they will have, or not have in the afterlife…?
17 2. The CBV teach that “resurrection” is nothing more than, or at least mostly about, restoration of Israel’s relationship with God, in a collective sense when the New Covenant was inaugurated in AD70. How would you explain that the Old Covenant began with the Ten Commandments give and was celebrated on the Feast of Pentecost as a type for when the Holy Spirit was poured out and filled those waiting in the Upper Room. Why would the “restoration of Israel’s relationship with God, in a collective sense” New Covenant not have begin then in AD33 as the antitype to the Old Covenant on the Feast of Pentecost…?
18 3. The New Covenant began because of the cross, but was implemented on the Day of Pentecost AD33; then it was confirmed in AD70 when the Old Covenant system was destroyed or taken out of the way. But why does the confirmation of the New Covenant become the resurrection. Does it not replace the resurrection of what was expected during the fulfillment of Blowing of Trumpets for the first century saints of the dead raised into their Spiritual redemptive body that was reserved for them in Heaven…?
19 4. It just seems very odd to me the CBV can not accept the rapture of a physical body change into a Spiritual body; yet they can not deny that is what happened to Jesus when He Ascended into heaven when He became a Life-giving Spirit no longer known in the flesh. The CBV say they had to die before going into Heaven and leave their physical body behind yet Jesus gets a free pass on that one; or does CBV believe Jesus had to physical die a second time in order for their disbelief in a “CHANGE” into a Spiritual body, which makes no sense.
20 5. Do you think the Bible should have been re-written so that people can understand the CBV better; basically like what Covenant Creation (CC) has done with Beyond Science Creation because no one thought about these issues until around 1971 for CBV, and 2007 for CC…?
21 The Preterist view faces big challenges with our Futurist brothers and sisters. The worst thing we could do is to through a big mixture of here a cult, there a cult and everywhere a cult, cult into it, and open the door to covenant creation, universalism, or Israel Only for them to digest.
22 We really need to stand against those doctrines of demons of CBV, CC, Universalism, IO and many of the twisted things that goes against the founding faith of Christianity. 23 Surely the founding fathers of it were not wrong in everything and there really is no need to re-write the Bible like covenant creation has done. 24 Its bad enough that the Collective Body View has erased all possibilities of any kind of personal resurrection. 25 It would be safer to be a deceived futurist thinking they are going to have a glorified physical body for the afterlife than not to have any faith at all. 26 How in the world can we convince a futurist of the Preterist view if there is no afterlife body. 27 Then to convince them they got everything wrong after embracing every cult that is out there and giving that for them to put their faith into.
28 The Corporate “Covenant” Body View “CBV” believe that the resurrection that occurred in AD70 was a Covenantal change where the Old Covenant ended. 29 Though they don’t deny that the New Covenant began as the antitype to when the Old Covenant began when the Ten Commandments were given. 30 The Feast of Pentecost was observed annually on that date yet they magically move it to the end of the Age as the resurrection into the New Covenant which is deceitful.
31 In contrast the Individual Body View (IBV) believe that the believers in Christ who were alive at the second appearing were changed from an individual’s physical body to a Spiritual body like the Angels have, and like what Jesus has according to:
1 Corinthians 15:44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
32 The confirmation of the Covenant would come in AD70 when Jerusalem and the Temple were taken away there destruction. 33 The CBV has the restoration of Israel’s relationship with God, in a collective and Covenant sense at the coming of the Lord and they deny the resurrection of the dead into their Spiritual redemptive body by saying it was something else other than what was expected.
34 This has serious consequences in how it would effect one’s individual salvation and a hope to had a Spiritual body for the afterlife. 35 The CBV sees this as imaginary and as a false hope which says volumes in denial of any kind of resurrection whether into a physical body that Futurist and Partial Preterist expect. 36 Or a Spiritual body that IBV believes all ready happened. 37 Even the first century saints were expecting an afterlife in Heaven with a Spiritual redemptive body and it is evident throughout the Bible.
38 The first Feast of Pentecost came as a type from the day Moses presented the Ten Commandments to the children of Israel when they began their journey in the wilderness for 40 years. 39 When Moses came down from the mountain with them he saw that while he was gone the people had made a golden calf to worship. 40 After that 3000 people died as a results they were not able to enter into the promised land until that generation died off with Moses 40 years later. 41 The Ten Commandments that were to be written on the hands and foreheads marked the beginning of the Old Covenant of the law and types and shadows for the good things to come through Christ. 42 I believe the laws of God written on the hands and foreheads became the Mark of there Beast after the New Covenant was implemented because they were to be written in the heart and mind.
43 When the fulfillment of Pentecost came at the Upper Room in AD33 the New Covenant begin with God filling them with His Holy Spirit. 44 When the fulfillment of Pentecost came at the Upper Room in AD33 the New Covenant begin with God filling them with His Holy Spirit and 3000 souls were saved. 45 This was an opposite to what happened when 3000 died for breaking God’s laws. 46 God wrote His laws in the hearts and minds instead of the hand and forehead where the Ten Commandments were to be written. 47 After the first century Church spent 40 years waiting for the second appearing of Christ they entered into the Age that was to come in a New Heaven and Earth.
48 The Feast of Pentecost was for the harvest for the First Fruits of wheat, which was a type for the First Fruits who had the Spirit “The Church”; The New Covenant began in AD33 and the Collective Body View misapply it to AD70 as a “already but not yet” is not a exegesis antitype match to the Feast of Pentecost but an assertion.
49 Then Don K. Preston digs him self deeper with statements like Jesus shedding Spiritual blood in debates with Edward E. Stevens IBV which you can get more info on that from Ed about the ramifications on how that would play out is mind boggling.
50 What happen in AD70 was that the New Covenant was confirmed when the Old Covenant system with the temple was taken away according to Daniel 9:27 and Hebrews 10:9.
Hebrews 10:9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
51 The Old Covenant for Israel was at Pentecost when the Ten Commandments were given, and the Feast of Pentecost was celebrated on that day every year. 52 That began the Old Covenant which was the type for the New Covenant; and the Ten Commandments foreshadowed the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
53 The CBV is out of sync with their timing on this issue for the anti type so it nullifies their interpretation of their CBV by to connect it to the Blowing of Trumpets in AD70.
54 Full Preterism has the same problems within today as mainline Christianity has with all the cults within. 55 One thing I’ve noticed is that almost every cultish doctrine within Christendom has been seen with those who embrace Collective Body View and Covenant Creation. 56 They all seem to go hand to hand with a lot of cultish doctrines and would have a hard time convincing mainline Christians that they were wrong in almost everything. 57 Though not all CBV believers accept the Covenant Creation view. 58 But all Covenant Creation believers accept the CBV.
59 On the other hand I notice most Individual Body View believers stay within the conservative doctrines within Christendom and there creeds aside from eschatology. 60 If we’re going to have an effect on Christendom in the future the CBV side will be able to influence most of those into some sort of cultish teaching. 61 They will not have much influence on Christendom as a whole like the IBV believe will be able to do but rather do more damage to the Full Preterist movement than we can possibly imagine.
62 Full Preterism in its basic understanding and belief is that all things were fulfilled in AD70. 63 However this belief extends into other doctrines that are connected to it which opens to doors to anything and everything goes. 64 In general the IBV stays fairly conservative within mainline Christianity. 65 The CBV leans to open views that mainline Christianity would see as cultish doctrines and therefore will not go near it. 66 The Hyper Preterist would appeal more to the cultish doctrines within groups known to reject the creeds.
67 Here is a comparison chart between the two views:
Full Preterism Worldview……………….Vs. Hyper Full Preterism
1 Individual Body View of Resurrection 1 Corporate Body View of Resurrection
2 New Heaven & Earth Eschatology 2 Covenant Eschatology
3 Whole Creation Worldview 3 Whole Creation is Church Only
4 Holy Spirit Latter Rain on all Flesh AD70 4 All Gifts of Holy Spirit ceased in AD70
5 A Prodigal Son Spiritual Death 5 Non-Believers Adam’s Spiritual Death & Curse
6 Eternal Conscience Torment of Spirit 6 Total Annihilation of Satan, Demons & the Unjust
7 Ultimate Jubilee Worldview post AD70 7 Universalism “Comp. Grace” & New Age Oneness
8 Literal Biblical Creation Worldview 8 Non-Literal Covenant Creation BSC of Genesis 1
9 The rapture occurred in AD66 9 Do not believe in physical or Spiritual resurrection
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
Matthew 6:29 yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
68 Both agree that all scripture was fulfilled in AD70 and share many of the same beliefs in eschatology. 69 While the Biblical Creation Worldview is not an established position and probably never will be. 70 What I think it though I do not have a solid position on it; it does lean to a balance view of Old Earth Creation for the first four days and Young Earth Creation for after the fourth day. 71 I stay within the foundational doctrine within mainline Christianity, while exploring the limits allowed without violating what the scriptures literal say in Genesis 1.
Body, Soul and Spirit Connection:
72 The main point in this part of this article is to focus on rightly dividing the truth between what is Spirit, soul and Body. 73 The Bible teaches that we consist of Spirit, soul and body:
I Thessalonians 5:23 “May your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus”
74 Our physical bodies is obvious, but our Souls and Spirits are less noticeable. 75 Our Soul speaks of your inner-life in relation to your own experience: our mind, heart, will, and imagery things that are not necessarily true. 76 It includes your thoughts, desires, passions, and dreams, but your Spirit speaks of our faith, hope, love, character, and perseverance in the Spiritual life in relation to God.
77 When we die, our Spirit separates from the body and returns back to God while the body returns back to the Earth. 78 Even though our Body dies, our Spirit, which is the essence of who we are, lives on. 79 Our Soul and Spirit does not go to Hades like it would have before AD70 waiting for a period of time until it is resurrected. 80 Our Spirits unites with our Spiritual Individual Redemptive body that God has in reserve waiting for us right after we physically die.
81 The CBV believes the resurrection of AD70 was being resurrected into the New Covenant with the things THEY ALREADY HAD when they were filled with the Holy Spirit beginning at Pentecost, but they apply that to be the resurrection in AD70. 82 So in a sense they deny a Spiritual Individual Redemptive body, but rather seem to believe in a collective body with no individual identity that is blended together like a loaf of bread instead of individual strands of wheat. 83 Can you just image the reapers in the parable of the wheat and tares at harvest time cutting down a huge loaf of bread in the field with weeds sticking out of the loaf and having to pull them out. 84 That is in a sense of how it would have to be if the Collective Body View was true when it comes to the corporate oneness that leaves the individuality of the person out of it. 85 The CBV view of the New Covenant is what the Spirit of a new born again believer had at Pentecost in AD33 before the resurrection happened in AD70.
86 The redemptive Spiritual Individual Body View IBV believe that they did have personal identification so they would be like the Angels and what Jesus has in Heaven, yet united as one in the Spirit. 87 There is a difference of separation between Spirit, Soul and Body for the afterlife. 88 This would be a gross misunderstanding and cause confusion of what oneness actually is in the Spirit or conscience if there was no division between the soul and the Spirit.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
89 The CBV denies an Individual Spiritual body IBV, that the saints would get in the resurrection in AD70 and replace it with the things THEY ALREADY HAD !!! and apply them to the resurrection which denies them of faith for a scriptural Individual Spiritual Redemptive Body. 90 They use the New Covenant as a straw man to cover for their version of the resurrection which is all truth but misapplied to debunk the truth of a Spiritual Individual Redemptive body that a saint would be resurrected into. 91 Those who have the Covenant Creation view back up the CBV. 92 When truth is use and misapplied it is deception because people hear the truth and believe it because it sounds true not knowing it has been misapplied and misrepresented and easier to get away with, than an outright lie that believers can see.
93 Bottomline is that CBV robs people of the hope of a resurrection and blinds them from the things in the unseen realm in the afterlife. 94 And those who are anti indwelling of the Holy Spirit post AD70 rob people of the hope of the infilling of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives that empower us to live a Holy life, and it leaves non believers there as if still under Adam’s sin and death that the final Jubilee in AD70 set all of mankind free from.
Indwelling of the Holy Spirit:
95 Most people not all who are CBV do not believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit post AD70 except when someone is speaking the word of God from the “Logos” scriptures only. 96 The “Rheum” hearing what the Spirit is saying, is rejected. 97 The problem with this view is that we need the Holy Spirits indwelling to have the Fruits of the Spirit within our lives as well as speaking the word of God with present day truth for today. 98 Red Flags go up with them when you mention: hearing what the Spirit is saying. 99 Because of the fear they have that would over ride God’s authoritative written word by their own means of interpretation as God’s authoritative word.
100 Talking about chaining God’s word which the Bible says can not be chained. This is how someone can be in danger to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. 101 When someone actually heard what the Spirit is saying, and then they get demonized for saying that as if calling the Spirit a lie or is coming from a demonic doctrine. 102 We can test the Spirits to see if what someone says is so, but to outright deny all of it, is a dangerous place to go. 103 To say we are hearing what the Spirit is saying comes with a great responsibility yet we can also be assured by testing every Spirit first before we say something. 104 The Holy Spirit will confirm things by using hermeneutics and typologies to back up what is being said, and whether the application would make sense for present day truth with nothing misplaced or misrepresented.
2 Timothy 2:9for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.
1 John 4:1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Ezekiel 13:3 Thus says the Lord God: “Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!
Revelation 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Universalist and Annihilationalist:
Universalist and Annihilationalist have something to see here, that they need to consider for their views.
105 The death Adam was to die was both a Spiritual and a physical death. God provided a substitute animal the day Adam and Eve sinned and covered them with its skin for a physical death. 106 This was an act of God’s grace and mercy that was a type for what Jesus would do on the cross. 107 Notice here that God did not say Adam would not die physical if he never sinned but it was a death in Hades he would die as part of the curse that came upon him and return to dust. 108 Many people believed this meant that Adam would never physical die but that is not what it says.
Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
109 If Adam was to have never die physically if he never had sinned he would have never been able to enter Heaven where flesh and blood can not enter. 110 If Adam’s physical death at the end of his years was what God meant, then that would also mean that in the resurrection everyone would have had a physical body instead of a Spiritual Body, which is not how it happened. 111 Paul clearly says that the resurrected body was a Spiritual body in:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
112 Therefore when we connect all the dots from scripture it boils down to this that in the afterlife, everyone post AD70 is raised with a Spiritual body without going to Hades and becoming a disembodied soul. 113 The just would be immortal and the unjust would be mortal because after judgment the Spiritual body and soul can be destroyed. 114 But the Spirit or conscience that connects with God and returns to God at physical death is never destroyed. 115 So this is the Spirit or conscience that was to be tormented in the presence of the Lamb forever in the Lake of Fire in the unseen Spiritual realm; it has nothing to do with physical body being tortured in literal fire.
116 Not only can the physical body be destroyed, but those who were unjust were resurrected into a Spiritual body for judgment so both physical and Spiritual body could be destroyed along with the soul. 117 With the soul destroyed repentance is impossible for what Universalist would say when the unjust repent after they are in the Lake of Fire, and then get a free card out of the Lake of Fire after they repent and are saved. 118 The Soul is the mind, will and the emotions therefore if the Body and Soul is killed in the afterlife of those who get eternal condemnation there would be no emotional pain, no ability to think about having the will to chose to repent. 119 Annihilationalist say everything gets annihilated, while Universalist say only dead works controlled by the soul get annihilated, while the Spirit is saved 120 But both of these views are not seeing the big picture completely. 121 The unjust lose their Spiritual body and Soul in the Lake of Fire when it is destroyed because they are not immortal nor do they have immortality, but their Spirit consciousness is tormented forever because the Spirit goes back to God who gave it, after physical death.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
122 Could part of their torment being aware in their Spirit or conscience of their Spiritual Body and Soul go up in smoke forever and ever and never be able to do anything about it and paralyzed without their Spiritual body. 123 While also their Spirit being aware or able to see all the joy in Heaven while having to live with all those who did not make it, as well as being ruled by Satan the king of the Kingdom of Darkness with all of his Angels being tormented with them. 124 This would not be something anyone would want for themselves in the afterlife, but it is a possible reality in the unseen realm in the Lake of Fire.
125 The scriptures and Holy Spirit guide and show us what to believe by separating and rightly dividing the word of truth. 126 Otherwise we have to rule out both to fit a view that is not seeing the big picture. 127 After connecting all the dots that hermeneutics will show us if we have an open heart and mind to receive and believe it the Holy Spirit can reveal the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.
Matthew 10:28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Revelation 14:11And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Conclusion:
128 I would place the spiritual death and resurrection through water Baptism at the cross for death as the Passover, and the Spiritual resurrection with the Sheaf Wave offering and the deliverance from sin through the Feast of Un-Leaven Bread. 129 There is no way that you can erase this and cast it into the Fall appointed times like what Collective Body View does. 130 It just doesn’t make hermeneutical sense and Don K. Preston, Mike Sullivan and all those who support the CBV should have known better by now.
131 I don’t think we can nail down the exact time the Fall Appointed times of Blowing Trumpets, Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles were fulfilled. 132 All we got were the signs to look for like the destruction of the abomination of Desolations and Temple for the taking away of the first so that the second could be established that occurred shortly before those Fall Appointed times would have come. 133 They were pretty well all done in the unseen Spiritual realm like the resurrection of the just and the unjust. 134 All we can assume was that they all did occur on the dates they were design to happen on. 135 We can see where all the Spring appointed times were fulfilled by their occurrences in the natural realm starting with the Passover and Jesus being the sacrifice. 136 Followed by the others and eventually Pentecost at the Upper Room when the Holy Spirit filled those who were waiting for it.
137 Edward E. Stevens IBV fills all the holes with the Resurrection of the saints in Matthew 27:51-53 and in AD66 for the complete first resurrection of the blessed. 138 As well as the GWTJ resurrection in AD70 for the whole creation of the just and the unjust after the Temple no longer stood.
139 The CBV has been mistaken for what the confirmation of the New Covenant was about according to Daniel 9:27 and placed the Spring time Feast in there and has made the big mess of the Full Preterist movement. 140 This will be the legacy of the CBV and all those who continue to supported it. 141 But they all have a choice either to come clean and maybe God will use them in a great way, or face a very harsh reality that is coming their way soon and not 2000 years from now. 142 Jesus did not have to die a second time physically after He was resurrected before His Ascension. 143 He was raptured into Heaven which we call His Ascension. 144 He had a bodily change from physical to a Life-giving Spirit before He enter into Heaven where flesh and blood can not enter. 145 Just like those who were alive at His second coming who did not have to taste death but were changed into their Spiritual body in AD66.
Manifested Sons of God AD70 